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Bowled Over: Celebrating Ravichandran Ashwin's Legendary Career
Ravichandran Ashwin's retirement from international cricket marks the end of an era for Indian cricket, and this episode delves deep into his illustrious career. The hosts Benny and Mayank, along with special guest Shayan, explore the nuances of Ashwin's contributions to the game, from his remarkable bowling feats to his strategic mind on the field. They discuss key moments from his career, including standout performances in pivotal matches and his unique approach to the game, which has often set him apart as a thinker and innovator. The conversation also touches on the complexities of his persona, the challenges he faced within the team dynamics, and how his analytical nature has influenced both his playing style and leadership potential. Join them as they celebrate the remarkable journey of one of cricket's greatest off-spinners and reflect on what his legacy means for the future of Indian cricket.
Ravichandran Ashwin's cricketing journey is a testament to talent, intelligence, and relentless pursuit of excellence. This episode takes listeners through the various milestones of Ashwin's career, from his early days in the IPL with Chennai Super Kings to his pivotal role in the Indian Test team. The hosts, Benny, Mayank, and guest Shayan, engage in a rich discussion about Ashwin's unique contributions to cricket, emphasizing his strategic acumen and ability to adapt his game to different formats and conditions. They explore the nuances of his retirement announcement, made mid-series during a challenging tour of Australia, raising important questions about the timing and its implications for the team dynamics.
The episode highlights key performances that defined Ashwin's career, including his impactful spells in crucial matches such as the 2011 World Cup quarter-finals and the 2013 Champions Trophy final. The hosts delve into statistical analysis to underscore Ashwin's effectiveness as a bowler, discussing his ability to exploit batsmen's weaknesses and his evolution as an all-rounder. They reflect on his batting contributions, which, while sometimes overlooked, have been crucial in many match situations. This multifaceted approach provides a comprehensive understanding of Ashwin as a player who not only excels in bowling but also provides valuable runs when needed most.
As the conversation unfolds, the hosts celebrate Ashwin's legacy and the indelible mark he has left on Indian cricket. They reminisce about memorable moments and the sheer joy he has brought to fans across the globe. The episode calls for listeners to appreciate Ashwin's achievements in the context of his unique playing style and his impact on the sport, urging a focus on the celebration of his career rather than the controversies surrounding his retirement. By the end, listeners are left with a profound appreciation for Ashwin's contributions to cricket and an understanding of what makes him one of the game's greats.
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Transcript
Foreign.
Benny:Hello and welcome to the Last Wicket.
Benny:I'm your host Benny.
Benny:Thank you for joining us.
Benny:And before we get to anything else, I want to wish our listeners a very happy New Year.
Benny: u a very Happy and successful: Benny:May all your dreams come true.
Benny:Don't let them stay just dreams.
Benny:Keep working hard on it because that is the advice I would give to the Indian cricket team which seems to be in a bit of turmoil at the time of recording this episode.
Benny:We'll, we'll talk a little about it.
Benny: But to start off: Benny:Might be open for debate, but we'll talk about all that and more.
Benny:We're going to be talking about R.
Benny:Ashwin, who I guess now we can quote, unquote, say former Indian offspinner.
Benny:We'll talk about his retirement, his career and what it all means for the Indian teams, the Indian Test team's prospects at least going forward.
Benny:But first, let me get my fellow co host on here as well.
Benny:M is here and Happy New Year, Mayank.
Mayank:Happy New Year.
Benny:And we have a very special guest.
Benny:Shayan.
Benny:Thank you so much for joining us today.
Shayan:Thank you for the invitation, guys.
Shayan:Really appreciate it.
Benny:Yeah, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself, especially to people who may not be very familiar with you.
Shayan:Yeah.
Shayan:So my name is Shayan Ahmed Khan and I work at Good Areas.
Benny:So.
Shayan:So I'm a writer basically for Good Areas and I do a lot of number crunching, data analysis and those sorts of things, though a lot less of that nowadays.
Shayan:But I'd like to say that I like to tell cricket stories using data.
Shayan:That's basically my job description at the moment.
Benny:Sounds like the perfect job.
Benny:Honestly, if I wasn't, you know, doing what I do right now, that's what I would be doing.
Benny:I mean, or that's what I would want to do anyway.
Benny:But Cheyenne, let's get straight into it.
Benny:Obviously Ashwin's retirement mid series in Australia got a lot of people talking.
Benny:I think mainly about the timing of it all, but also just how it affects the balance of the Indian team.
Benny:I just wanted to start with a very simple question and this is, you know, open to all of us.
Benny:So Mike, you can share your thoughts as well.
Benny:I always found it curious when players decide to retire in the middle of a series.
Benny:I mean, Ashwin is Now the first person to retire mid series.
Benny:He's not even the first player to retire mid series in Australia.
Benny:So I'm just curious about your thoughts on the timing of his retirement.
Benny:Should it have waited till after the series or, you know, was it his call, like, was it the right call for him to, you know, retire when the series was still alive?
Shayan:So on this, I feel like retirement is a very personal thing for every single athlete and I feel like they should be allowed to be available for selection as long as they want and they are allowed to call time.
Shayan:Right.
Shayan:It's up to the team whether they want to select him or not.
Shayan:And as far as Ashwin goes, I feel like they probably thought that he is not among the top two first choice spinners except the ping ball test, which is what Rohit also said that he wanted to keep him for the ping ball test.
Shayan:Right.
Shayan:So I feel like it's a very personal thing, retirements and everything.
Shayan:He's, I think, I believe he's 38, he's had a stellar career for India.
Shayan:So I have no issues with the timing of his retirement, per se.
Benny:Yeah.
Mayank:I would go on to add and say I do think some part of it was also just, you know, how his body was reacting.
Mayank:It sounded like some reports that his knee wasn't 100%.
Mayank:So I'm guessing on top of that, you know, just being on tour, just being away and not guaranteed a spot, all of that contributed towards it.
Mayank:I completely agree.
Mayank:It is definitely a personal decision.
Mayank:I did find it a little bit odd that it was right in the middle of the series.
Mayank:But yeah, you're right, he's not the first one to do it this way.
Mayank:And it is a team in transition as I'm sure we'll talk about.
Mayank:So it is probably also a scenario where he was probably not as happy in that dressing room as he's been in the past over the 12 years that he's played for India.
Mayank:So guessing all of that together contributed towards that decision.
Mayank:But all in all, I think it's.
Mayank:It's worth celebrating the career rather than the timing.
Shayan:Definitely, definitely.
Shayan:And also I feel like because India's next big assignment is in England.
Shayan:Right.
Shayan:Again, those are five tests.
Shayan:Maybe the team management would have told him that they don't see him as a first choice option there or a second choice option.
Shayan:Maybe in England they don't even need to play two spinners.
Shayan:So maybe considering that he would have thought the next home test is after a long while.
Shayan:So from that point of view, I Feel like it made sense.
Shayan:Maybe mid series you could argue timing wise it's probably not ideal but yeah, I have no issues.
Shayan:He was a great.
Benny:Yeah.
Benny:And we.
Benny:And we'll talk about all of his achievements especially you know, starting out when he did and then all of the kind of a meteoric rise I would say.
Benny:I personally would have preferred that he had retired at the end of the series.
Benny:I feel like he could have played a bigger part in the previous test and in the Sydney test as well.
Benny:But again, like you guys mentioned, if he was not even guaranteed a spot in the 11, I can see where he's coming from especially knowing the type of person he is based on his own.
Shayan:He's a fierce competitor.
Shayan:We know that.
Shayan:Right.
Benny:He's super competitive and we talked about Ashwin in a previous episode, his book that he had released Kutty stories.
Benny:Know his insight when he started.
Benny:Right.
Benny:Like as a kid and you could see he just burns with that competitive spirit and I can see where he can take offense at being because it's not the first time, you know, he's been preferred or he has been.
Benny:There have been other spinners preferred over him overseas.
Benny:I mean even Karan Sharma got preference over him in a previous Australian test.
Benny:And so I can see him getting really hurt and just thinking I'm too old for this to deal with all of this.
Benny:I have a family, I could rather spend time with them than dealing with it.
Benny:So I hope it was not a spur of the moment reaction but more of a considered, you know, process.
Shayan:But maybe he discuss it with everyone, with the team, with all the senior players, with the junior players, with the team management.
Shayan:He would have, I'm sure he would have made the call feeling depending upon what he felt was right.
Shayan:So I've got no issues.
Benny:It's funny that, but I was definitely.
Shayan:Surprised by the time.
Shayan:Like if you ask me, I didn't think he would retire that early.
Shayan:And if you ask me, I feel like he could have played another couple of years the next.
Shayan:He could have definitely played with the home season.
Shayan:Definitely.
Shayan:Maybe not in England, maybe particular games in England, but at home.
Shayan:He's never missed a home test.
Shayan:That's my favorite start about Ashwin these days.
Shayan:He never missed a home test.
Shayan:Do you guys realize how big that is?
Shayan:55 matches if I'm not over.
Benny:Yeah.
Benny:Ever since he made his debut, which is over a decade ago.
Benny:But let's talk about his career.
Benny:I think we can dive into it.
Benny:So.
Mayank:Sure.
Benny:Yeah.
Mayank:So I think the first time I noticed Ashwin at least on TV.
Mayank:Obviously he played for Tamil Nadu before, but on TVs he started appearing with the IPL and then of course Champions League T20 wearing a CSK jersey.
Mayank:One of the things that I remember was just him bowling the power playovers, which was, you know, something not as common back in the day at that point.
Mayank:You know, spinners bowling early was not something that happened.
Mayank:But Shan, maybe we'll start with you.
Mayank:What were your thoughts on this phase?
Shayan:Yeah, I think it was a pretty interesting phase.
Shayan:And you can't look past the dismissal of Chris Gale in the IPL final.
Shayan:Right?
Shayan: The: Shayan:That is something everybody remembers really well.
Shayan:So I think, yeah, Ashwin actually at the start of his T20 career, I feel like Ashwin was really up there as one of the best bowlers in the league.
Shayan:Right.
Shayan:You could probably say that was not the case for the latter half of his career.
Shayan:But in terms of economy rates, he was always up there.
Shayan:But in the early part of his career, he was even an impactful wicket taker, I would say.
Shayan: cricket, you have to look at: Shayan:That opening spell.
Shayan:Wow, he was so good.
Shayan: And then of course the: Shayan:So he definitely had that in him.
Shayan:He was a very thinking bowler.
Shayan:So I just feel like Ashwin in white ball cricket definitely has a great legacy.
Mayank:Benny, what are your thoughts as a, as a CSK fan?
Benny:I could do an entire episode on Ashwin, the CSK player.
Benny:I'm so glad that he's actually coming back to csk.
Benny:Exactly.
Shayan:I was about to say that I was really happy for my friends who support CSK and who like Ashwin.
Shayan:I was like, yeah, this is the ideal situation for you guys.
Benny:He's coming back home.
Benny:He's coming back home.
Benny:I mean, you can see from every time he talks about it, every time he writes about it, you could see how close, you know, Chennai or first of all, Tamil Nadu cricket in general is for him, just his involvement in the tnpl, you know, his very, very close involvement in the TNPL just shows how much he loves Tamil Nadu cricket.
Benny:And for him and especially starting out with CSK and now coming back to it, you know, it's a pretty big deal for him.
Benny:And yeah, so going back to that early years, years, especially when he first started, first of all, back then, Mutaya Muran was the spinner for csk.
Benny:Right.
Benny:Like it was like, we have the best offspinner in the world in our team.
Benny:When I say we, it's obviously csk.
Benny:Bear with me.
Benny:And then someone like Ashwin comes along.
Benny:And I'm not one who used to follow, like domestic cricket a lot back then.
Benny:I just knew he was a cricketer from Tamil Nadu.
Benny:And also very quickly I learned, and Mike knows this already, we share the same birth date and year, which to me has always been like, I always like to tell my friends, like, you know, our lives were just like this.
Benny:Just.
Benny:It could have just flipped.
Benny:But it's obviously nowhere close to the truth.
Benny:But I remember back then thinking, he's not.
Benny:He.
Benny:It was not like he was bowling magic deliveries, right?
Benny:Like, he was a very intelligent bowler.
Benny:He was very.
Benny:He used to think a lot into every delivery.
Benny:But when you're used to, when you're.
Benny:At least when, as a younger cricket fan, you want action all the time.
Benny:And Ashwin was not the one who always produced magic moments like at the tip of a.
Benny:You know, it was not like on demand.
Benny:It was always like a process where you would get to that.
Benny:And so when I first started watching him, I didn't really get that sense.
Benny:Sure, you mentioned the Gale Wicket.
Benny:Obviously that was like probably his biggest calling card to fame at that point.
Benny:But somehow I never really saw him going past the ipl.
Benny:I never imagined he would break through to the Indian team and to become the player that he did.
Benny:So those early years, like, he seemed very good and capable at that level.
Benny:So I, yeah, I'm, I'm really.
Benny:I was really surprised when he got the call up to the Indian team.
Benny:And even then I was thinking he'll play a few games here and there because Tamil Nadu has a history of producing cricketers who will appear for two or three games and then go off.
Benny:And I thought that would be the same thing that would happen to Ashwin.
Benny:And when he got his Test, you know, when he, when he got selected in the Tesla test squad, I thought again, he's not going to even get a game.
Benny:Then he gets a game and then goes on to just like wreak havoc from there on.
Benny:And so overall, yeah, my first impression of him was that he was going to be okay, not good, and then he goes on to surpass it and become great.
Shayan:Yeah, I definitely, I think obviously he's more of a test grade than say white ball cricket, limited overs cricket, ODIs and T20s, so.
Shayan: e, for me, I think it was the: Shayan: ell that Ashwin bowled in the: Shayan:And growing up I had always heard about Australia and, and how they were so dominant and everything and such a spell now, I mean, of course at that time I probably didn't pay much attention to it, but now I realize how big that was.
Shayan:And that was probably his only game in that tournament.
Shayan:Right.
Shayan: than a couple of games in the: Mayank:Yeah, you're right, Cheyenne.
Mayank:Sorry, I didn't mean to cut you.
Mayank:But yeah, you're right, he did play a couple, maybe in the group stage.
Mayank:But yeah, I didn't play a lot, I think.
Shayan:Yeah, he might have played like two or three games, I feel.
Mayank:Right.
Shayan:But in the, in the knockouts, at least that was his only game, if I'm not wrong.
Mayank:Yeah, correct.
Shayan:So definitely that spell.
Shayan: And then the: Shayan:Right.
Shayan: And then even the: Shayan:Right.
Shayan:He was so good.
Shayan: rat Kohli and Rohit Sharma in: Shayan:Ashwin.
Shayan:Ashwin.
Shayan:Jadeja.
Shayan:Amit Mishra.
Shayan:India had a really good bowling attack as well.
Shayan:Mohit Sharma for that matter.
Shayan: really good bowling attack in: Mayank:And as we get into his India career, so obviously we talked about CSK those early days, him showing great sparks whether it was the Gale wicket or bowling the tough overs, power playovers.
Mayank:Then I think came the one day debut.
Mayank:Initially it was against Zimbabwe, but then a lot of limelight on him again in the New Zealand series at home where Gambir was leading funnily enough, he's the head coach right now as he retires.
Mayank:And.
Mayank: tla along with umesh Yadav in: Mayank:He was actually the player of the series in that first, first series that he played.
Shayan:Yeah, that's something we did a lot of times, right?
Mayank:Yes, absolutely.
Shayan:Of the series.
Shayan:In a home series that's become like synonymous almost.
Mayank:Yep.
Mayank:And I guess the, the place where I really felt that he had made his spot was actually not that series because, you know, anybody comes in, performs well, obviously it's exciting to see, especially when you've seen that player perform in IPL and other leagues or heard of them doing well in first class cricket.
Mayank:But the point where I felt like he had really registered as an India player was the away tours.
Mayank:Because growing up like we all we were used to having spinners do well at home, but even somebody like Anil Kum, as great as he was, you know, he averages 38 in Australia and that's not anything against him.
Mayank:Australia is just tough conditions.
Shayan:Yeah, that's what I would like to point out.
Shayan:He really had to hold on some flat wickets in Australia.
Shayan:Right.
Shayan:That must be factored in definitely, when we're talking about.
Shayan:And a very interesting point on this.
Shayan: l in the first BK trophy, the: Shayan:Right.
Shayan:And I really want to make an important point here about luck and how you may be bowling really, really well and you may not get the wickets.
Shayan:The best example being Akash Deep right, in these last two matches, he has bowled really well.
Shayan:I.
Shayan:I was really excited to see him play.
Shayan:And he bowled very well in these two matches.
Shayan:Of course, he didn't get the wickets that he could have, but.
Shayan:Yeah, and probably the same could be said for Ashwin in that first Baga Trophy.
Shayan:He was bowling well.
Shayan:He was even getting early wickets at times, but he probably didn't have the stats to show for it at that time.
Shayan:But I feel like the people who were covering cricket at that time, they believe he was ready.
Shayan:So, yeah, you're right.
Shayan:It was those away tours where he started to really show his potential.
Shayan: reatness and everything, that: Shayan:Right.
Shayan: So that it started from the: Shayan:Right.
Shayan: me, it's probably that early: Shayan:Right.
Shayan:Initially, despite him showing really good talent away from home, you still thought he was very good at home, but away from home, let's see.
Shayan:Yeah.
Mayank:Benny, what about you?
Mayank:What do you recollect of the Test career in particular?
Mayank:What was there a particular tour that struck out or where you were like, wow, this.
Mayank:This guy is now a permanent feature?
Benny:For me, it wasn't necessarily a particular tour, but I remember this phase where I think it's the same phase that Shan is talking about where Ashwin and, you know, Jadeja, like, they just became like money in the bank.
Benny: s and early: Benny:And when they retired, initially there was like, who will take over?
Benny:Who will take over?
Benny:It'll be hard for India to maintain their dominance at home.
Benny:And then came Ashwin and then came Jade.
Benny:And I remember that phase in that same one that Shine talked about where, like, we were, India was just, like, whitewashing every team that came.
Benny:Not just Australia, I think England, South Africa.
Benny:And we can talk about the pitches a little bit because I know that that's always like, a sore topic whenever, you know, the legacy of the spinners is discussed, especially in India, people will bring up the pitches.
Benny:But the fact of the matter is both teams are playing on the same pitch, so you still have to bring the quality.
Benny:And that's where Ashwin was just so good.
Benny:Where you can see he came into himself.
Benny:He.
Benny: is prime somewhere in the mid: Benny: Like,: Benny:And so we just had, like, for Indian cricket fans, it was like golden era almost.
Benny:We didn't have a lot of trophies to show for it.
Benny:But I think in terms of performance, like, India was just, like, coming into it.
Benny: And then I think after the: Benny:But yes, to answer your question, Mayank, there was no one specific series.
Benny:It's funny, you know, like, how when people say for Steve Smith, like, when he starts batting, he looks so fidgety, he doesn't look very settled.
Benny:And then like 10, 15 minutes later, he scored like 30, 40 runs.
Benny:And you're like, how.
Benny:How the hell did he score runs already?
Benny:And I think it was the same for me watching Ashwin, like, when he first started taking wickets and he started hitting, he started like, he got 50 wickets, 100 wickets, and then they would throw up these stats, like, fastest 100, fastest 150.
Benny:And then before you know it, he has, like, 200 test wickets and he's played, like, for a few years.
Benny:And I think he just did it in a very less flashy way.
Benny:I know on YouTube there are all these compilations of, like, Ashwin's wicked and so many of them are so dramatic but they don't show the full context because prior to the wickeds, he's been working on the batters and when you watch in real time, sometimes you don't appreciate it or at least early on.
Benny:And so for me he just almost very quietly and very sneakily, he just became a big match winner for India.
Benny: And I think it was that early: Shayan:Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Shayan: ly played a part, but in that: Shayan:When India hosted England and Australia and Bangladesh for that one Test in that stretch of what I believe 10 matches, India were playing on some good pitches and these two really had a great impact.
Shayan:And that's why you said fast bowlers, right?
Shayan:Fast bowlers had an impact.
Shayan:The batters were scoring big runs.
Shayan:That was peak Indian cricket for me.
Shayan:For me as a cricket fan growing up, that was the peak of Indian cricket in test matches.
Shayan:They were dominating on every side of the ball.
Shayan:Bat, ball, spin, seam, everything.
Mayank:Right, yeah, absolutely.
Mayank: lar series against England in: Mayank:Yeah, they had a debutante score, a triple century.
Mayank:They had.
Mayank:Jayant Yadav scored a century.
Mayank:They had, you know, everybody would contribute and Kohli had double hundreds.
Mayank:And then of course, you know, Ashwin Jadeja and Amesh Yadav amongst the wickets.
Mayank:Going back a little bit, one of the things that I remember discussing when we, when he talked about Ashwin's book have the Streets was him growing up and talking to WV Raman about spin bowling.
Mayank:And the thing that stood out to me there was very early he had an understanding of, hey, a spinner, especially an off spinner, should not be cut as well as driven.
Mayank:And essentially that may seem like, okay, yeah, that's just giving, not giving away runs.
Mayank:But what it really emphasized was the piece about control.
Mayank:And I think that's where Ashwin was like a notch above all the other spinners around the world.
Mayank:You know, he just had really great control over his length, over his line, and no matter who the batter was, you know, for majority of these 12 and a half years that he played for the Indian team, especially the Test team, his control was just phenomenal.
Mayank:He was constantly keeping the ball in good areas and even if he was not getting wickets, he was making sure it wasn't easy for the batter.
Mayank:Shah and you mentioned, you know, obviously pitches being a part of it.
Mayank: lot of numbers apart from the: Shayan: Yeah, you could even say: Shayan:I feel like India didn't have a lot of what you would call rank turners or very spin friendly pitches.
Shayan:They were there.
Shayan:Those pitches were there.
Shayan:Definitely.
Shayan:There is no doubt about that.
Shayan: t been the same case as since: Shayan:Right.
Shayan:And you talked about Ashwin's control and line and length being really good.
Shayan:And the funny thing is it still is.
Shayan:Right.
Shayan: And even in: Shayan: In: Shayan:You know what has really changed the way batters are approaching them now, they are also trying to think, okay, let's try and score quickly of them, let's try to change their line and length.
Shayan:Play the reverse sweep.
Shayan:If you go back and look at the numbers, batters have never reverse whipped against these two bowlers as often as they did this year.
Shayan:So I feel like that has definitely played a part.
Shayan:But even then they had a pretty good year.
Shayan:If I'm not wrong, Ashwin averaged around 25, 26 this year.
Shayan:That is greatness.
Shayan:You're talking about a bowler at the end of his career and he's still getting you all the wickets.
Shayan:Right.
Shayan:And we could see it in the England series.
Shayan:He didn't have a great start to the England series earlier in the year, but then he came back and he was so, so good.
Mayank:Talking about those two together when they played they had 587 team test wickets at 21.
Mayank:Obviously 5, 15 of them came at home because playing away they couldn't always play together.
Mayank:Of course.
Benny:Sorry.
Benny:And I wonder how much of that was a miss.
Benny:I know that a lot of the time we could only fit in one spinner into the 11 overseas and I know there are valid explanations for that, but I just wonder if India should have persisted more with playing both of them in the 11, maybe even push Jade up the order and then have Ashwin in there as well.
Benny:So we could have probably played more of Daddy and Ashwin overseas and I just wonder if that was a huge miss.
Shayan:Yeah, yeah, so sorry, I just wanted to say that I think so.
Shayan: If you remember the: Shayan: ,: Shayan:That is when we saw Ashwin and Jadaja play together overseas in the two matches, Melbourne and Sydney, if I'm not wrong.
Shayan:And both the matches were really good for India.
Shayan:They won a game, they draw, they drew a game.
Shayan:And then even in the Test championship final, they were there together.
Shayan:So I feel like it could have worked.
Shayan:But then I do also see the merit in playing four paces in England.
Shayan: ted with Jadeja in that early: Shayan:But India had Hardik Pandya and we cannot deny Hardik Pandya's talent.
Shayan:Right.
Shayan:And he did give you some returns as well.
Shayan:He was, he was playing pretty well.
Shayan:He had that knock in Cape town, he scored 93, he had that 50 and five wicket haul in the Trend Bridge win.
Shayan:So there was this period of about eight tests, I believe, where Hardik Pandya and Ashwin were the two players, the two all rounders, if you may call it, who were playing for India.
Shayan:And then after Hardik did not play a Test, then they went to Jadeja.
Shayan:And then after that, obviously they kept, you know, depending upon the conditions, they would either play both or they would play one of them.
Shayan:Right.
Mayank:Yeah.
Mayank:It's interesting because one of the things that the former fielding coach mentioned was in his book, he mentioned that, you know, this was something that obviously was not easy for captain or coach.
Mayank:You know, during his time, the coach was Ravishastri, the captain was Virat Kohli.
Mayank:And he mentioned that this was not an easy decision for them at all because dropping Ashwin was, you know, dropping one of the most restless, most intelligent players.
Mayank:But at the same time what they agreed on was, you know, like when the pitchers have about 15 mm of grass, it, the spinner's role is pretty limited until day five, until day four and a half, day five.
Mayank:So all of that to say that it kind of made sense that they were, you know, hedging their bets with the pacers.
Mayank:And to be fair, you know, if we look at this border go Oscar Trophy, India have gone with three pacers throughout.
Mayank:And the part of the reason is they don't think they have four paces ready for Test cricket.
Mayank:Like if they actually felt Prashad Krishna or Harshit Rana was consistent enough to step up and bowl 20 overs in a day and bowl them well without going for four runs and over.
Mayank:I'm sure they would have picked them.
Mayank:But India keeps going with three pacers because they just don't have them.
Mayank:But for the vast majority of Ashman and Jadeja's career they had four pacers who were fit, who were available and you know, performing really well.
Shayan:Yeah.
Shayan: ou remember the lords test of: Shayan:That was India's four pace attack.
Shayan:Right.
Shayan:So it doesn't get better than that.
Shayan:At, at that point SJ was bowling really well.
Shayan:Even Ishan had offered a lot of control.
Shayan:Shami was doing well, Bumra as well.
Shayan:Bumra.
Shayan:So I feel like that was a really good time.
Shayan:And then they also had Shul Thakur back then.
Shayan:Right.
Shayan:He could give you some Handy runs at 8.
Shayan:He could take important wickets.
Shayan:Yes.
Shayan:Maybe he wasn't, what would say he wasn't at the level of the other pacers but he was still a very valuable cricketer and he had that fight in him and I feel he, that he was the sort of player who really embodied that Indian Test team.
Shayan:So I, I don't think that there was anything wrong in India going with four pacers and one spinner in that tour of England.
Shayan:And as big a controversy as it may seem and a lot of people were like trying to create rifts and controversies and whatnot.
Shayan:I used to get so annoyed at that time, like, yeah, it's a tactical decision, it could be a wrong decision, no doubt about it.
Shayan:You call that out.
Shayan:But then you are saying that picking Jadeja is not the fair decision or one of the pacers shouldn't be there.
Shayan:I didn't, I didn't like that.
Shayan:So as far as I'm concerned, I like those tactics where India went with four pacers and because that, what that does is it allows you to rotate on the fast bowlers.
Shayan:Right.
Shayan:A lot better.
Shayan:And we're seeing it on this tour more than any other.
Shayan:As you said, if India had four proper paces on this tour of Australia, four proper paces who they thought were ready.
Shayan:I mean, so that would have meant Bumra wouldn't have the same amount of workload or even S for that matter.
Shayan:Right.
Shayan:So I think absolutely.
Benny:I, I, I just find it amusing when especially former players or you know, even former coaches like Anil Kumle, when Ashwin, I remember when Ashwin got his 500th wicket and I think they had like a felicitation ceremony in Chennai And Kumble spoke there and he, you know, he was not the first one to say it, but what he said was, Ashwin should have played more tests by now or he should have featured in more away tests.
Benny:And I was thinking you were the coach when Ashwin was not featuring in the 11th.
Benny:And I remember even during the IPL, the last IPL, you know, Ashwin on his YouTube channel interviewed Gautam Gambir pre.
Benny:You know, Gambir becoming coach, Gambir said the same thing.
Benny:Like, yeah, you should.
Benny:You should have played more test.
Benny:Ashwin, you know, definitely overseas, you could have played more.
Benny:And now that he's coach, Ashwin has not either.
Benny:And I wonder if that.
Benny:If that has contributed to Ashwin just feeling like everyone says it, but nobody really puts me in the playing.
Shayan:11 used to say, you remember that he should B at number four in ODIs back when India had that problem of a number four.
Shayan:So that was the funniest one out of all of them where Gambir had said that, no, Ashwin should bat at number four for India and ODI cricket.
Shayan:That was really interesting.
Mayank:Yeah.
Mayank:I think one aspect of it, though, I mean, obviously, you know, coaches and Ravi Shastri is probably a key one who says a lot of things today, which he probably didn't do as coach.
Mayank:So there's a lot of people who change their stances, I guess, when they're in the job.
Mayank:But having said that, I think one of the reasons that probably is worth exploring is also his batting.
Mayank:So R.
Mayank:Ashwin obviously has five Test centuries, which is.
Mayank:He's the only one with 500 Test wickets to do that.
Mayank:So it's a phenomenal achievement.
Mayank: his career, until the end of: Mayank:Even away it was 30, and.
Mayank:And then it dropped to just 20 after that.
Mayank:It was also probably the same time when Jadeja just went on another level as far as batting is concerned.
Mayank:And that probably really narrowed his options.
Mayank:You know, like, I would say that his batting almost let him down.
Mayank:If he was still batting with an average of 30, I'm sure he would have played a lot more games.
Benny:I would actually say that that batting like, like this diminishing batting returns coupled with his poor reputation as a fielder, I think that always made, you know, was disservice for him because, you know, like, he mentions in his book he had some health issues, which ever since, like, his, like, early days as a cricketer, just people, once they got it into their head that he was A poor fielder that just never left him.
Benny:And I.
Benny:And I think whenever it was like between Jadeja and him, you see Jadeja, he's like the complete package, right?
Benny:Like gunfielder, very reliable bowler, handy batter.
Benny:And then you have Ashwin, great bowler.
Benny:But then when it comes to battery, you're like, okay, inconsistent.
Benny:And then fielder, nowhere close.
Benny:So I think that definitely the most.
Shayan:Beautiful 25 runs, right?
Shayan:If you see him bad, he would.
Benny:Drive and you'll be BVS Lakshman for the first 15 balls.
Shayan:Yeah, he's like, definitely.
Shayan: lmost like for the first till: Shayan:And then Jadeja just went up and Ashwin's batting returns dwindled.
Shayan:So yeah, that definitely would have played a part.
Shayan:I feel like if.
Shayan:If hypothetically Ashwin had had the same returns as a Jadeja with the bat, he would have played a lot more.
Shayan:There is no doubt about it.
Shayan:And if you even remember in the early days of Virat Police captaincy, Ashwin would bat at number six.
Shayan:They would go for five batters, Ashwin, Ridhiman Saha and four more bowlers, right?
Shayan:So they would go with five pure bowlers.
Shayan: as the tour of West Indies in: Shayan:The Russian used to bat at number six and he even made like 100.
Shayan:And he made runs at number six.
Shayan:Even at home he has made runs at number six.
Shayan:I feel like it's about 15 to 17 innings if I'm not wrong.
Shayan:But yeah, so he went from that.
Shayan:He was a, like, he was a good test battle for that position, for that number six, number seven, number eight position.
Shayan: , yeah, it's fair to say from: Mayank:Right.
Mayank:And I think the other aspect of it is, obviously this is great for us to debate that, hey, his batting let him down in the last few years.
Mayank:But the truth of it is, as you look back, you realize that you had two incredible spinners, both averaging less than 24 with the ball and then contributing with the bat.
Mayank:Essentially what it gave India was they were picking, at least at home, they were picking five bowlers and eight batters.
Mayank:Not even, you know, six batters because essentially two of these batters were capable of hundreds of beginnings.
Mayank:And you know, Ashwin may not be as as many beginnings towards the end of his career, but you know, even in the last two, three years he's had a home test 100.
Mayank:So, you know, the last season, in.
Shayan:This very season, in fact.
Shayan:Right.
Shayan:The very first test of the season at chok, him and J did it again.
Shayan:They saved the Indian batting.
Shayan:Right.
Benny:Right.
Mayank:And, and I think that's really the foundation of, I mean, as much as, you know, obviously we talked about the.
Mayank:Or briefly touched on the peak of Virat Kohli during this era.
Mayank:It obviously mattered.
Mayank:It mattered that we had bowlers like Omesh Yadav who could just reverse the SG ball, you know, and had a lot of control over it.
Mayank:But the fact that these two players really gave them four players, you know, they did the job of at least three players.
Mayank:I would say three, three and a half players because they were a batter and a half and two complete bowlers.
Mayank:That is probably the, you know, foundation of India's 18 consecutive Test series wins at home.
Shayan:Yeah, no doubt about it.
Shayan:They, both of them were the MVPs.
Shayan:If we really look at it, in that whole 18 series domination, 11 years of not losing a home series and everything.
Shayan:Yeah, they, it was these two.
Shayan:They were the two main players, of course, not to say that.
Shayan:Virat Kohli, Cheshar Pojara, then the Mur, then the other pacers, other batters.
Shayan:Rohit Sharma towards the.
Shayan: From: Shayan:In fact, you would say Rohit Sharma, Akshay Patel, Rishabh Pant, they all also played a really important part in that streak continuing for longer.
Shayan:Right.
Shayan:But the core of it was really those 4, 4, 5 players at the start, as you, as we mentioned, Ashwin Jadeja, Virat Kohli, Cheshwar Pujara.
Shayan:So, yeah, I think very.
Shayan:Those were great times.
Benny:As an Indian, I'm going to, going to put on my Sunu Gavaskar hat and say that, you know, bowlers really do get their.
Benny:Well, not just bowlers.
Benny:I would say spinners get always like the short end of the stick because batters are untouchable.
Benny:Right.
Benny:As we have seen for the longest time.
Benny:But even fast bowlers like Bumra, I mean, Bumra is in a different league and he's.
Benny:I don't really recall the time when he was in like, bad form as such.
Benny:But I feel like even with fast bowlers, we generally, you know, maybe it speaks to the lack of quality fast bowlers we've had over the decades in Indian cricket that when someone comes along like Bumra and Shami and Siraj, to an extent, we just give them every game possible wherever they play, be it In India or abroad.
Benny:But when it comes to spinners, even someone of the quality of Ravjana Ashwin, and even if you go back to kumble days, you know, there.
Benny:There was a time when, you know, they could only fit in either Kumble or Harbajan.
Benny:So I always feel like spinners don't really get glamorized the way that batsman and fast bowlers do in Indian cricket.
Shayan:And even in world cricket, I'd say, like, Shane 1 is probably the only exception to this.
Shayan:Right.
Shayan:Like, he was the only superstar.
Shayan:Superstar Murli Dharan would be pretty close, I'm sure, but, like, I'm talking about the modern generation.
Shayan:And in terms of spin bowling, the.
Shayan:The main superstar was Shane Vaughan.
Shayan:Right.
Shayan:And.
Benny:Right.
Shayan:I would actually say Ashwin is probably the next in terms of Indian cricket.
Shayan:And like, in this whole last 15 years and everything, Ashwin was probably the closest to that in.
Shayan:In the sense that he could speak his mind freely.
Shayan:He could talk about things, he could talk about tactics.
Shayan:He would.
Shayan:He was like, he was one of us.
Shayan:But a great cricketer.
Shayan:Right.
Shayan:That is the most fun part about all of this.
Shayan:Yeah.
Shayan:Like, he would write an article on crick info, he would tweet about what's happening in the world of cricket.
Shayan:Like, he would scout players and everything.
Shayan:You just don't know what he would do.
Benny:Yeah.
Mayank:And the aspect of it, obviously, like, it's amazing that he was doing so many things outside, but the other thing that I really enjoyed was just the second half of his career.
Mayank:You know, we talked about his batting maybe slipping away a little bit, but it's worth mentioning that his bowling kept getting better and better.
Mayank:And an example of that are, you know, obviously not that West Indies doesn't matter, but his record in West Indies was stellar throughout.
Mayank:So I'm going to keep that aside and look at, you know, Sena numbers, as people online call it.
Mayank:South Africa, England, New Zealand and Australia.
Mayank: And that, until: Mayank:And he's bowled so well in the last, you know, two and a half tours in Australia that he's actually out bowled Nathan Lyon at home, which is a phenomenal achievement.
Mayank:And it really just shows that one, you know, he studied, you know, what to do over these tours.
Mayank:He's learned, but the fact that he's always thinking and also he's always reading players, so.
Mayank:And that allowed him to conquer a country which is known to be, you know, sort of a deathbed for spinners.
Shayan:Of Spinners in particular, I must mention.
Shayan:Right.
Shayan:That is what, that is why what Nathan Lyon has done has been so special.
Shayan:And then Ashwin going on to outworld Nathan Lyon in the last two tours before this one, that is really special.
Shayan:No doubt about it.
Shayan:And funnily, even in the last Test, his very last Test in Adelaide, he bowled more than Nathan Lyon in that match.
Shayan:He almost got Travis Head.
Shayan:If Siraj didn't drop that catch, he got Travis Head, though you could argue that Mitchell match wasn't out either.
Shayan:So that was the other side of it.
Shayan:But he was, he was pretty good in his last match.
Shayan:I watched the game, I think he was pretty good.
Mayank:I, I would agree, actually, I, I was a little surprised when India went to Jadeja in that third Test because I definitely felt that the spinner's role was just to provide balance.
Mayank:And Ashwin was doing a great job of that, you know, providing control.
Mayank:As we talked about, obviously Travis Head being Travis Head, went for a few shots and got a few sixes of him, but overall, even he was not completely in control.
Mayank:Right, Right, absolutely.
Mayank:But even then Ashwin was able to trouble Travis Head, challenge him a little bit.
Mayank:And to your point, like, if that cat was taken, or even other chances, he created, he created enough jeopardy for, for a spinner on a wicket which didn't have too much for him.
Shayan:Exactly.
Mayank:The.
Mayank:The other piece, especially Australia that I'll always remember is, you know, the last Border Gavaskar Trophy there, where after India had won one of the interviews that I believe it was with Karthikrishwamy of Crick Info, where Ashwin was, you know, talking about just how he's always watching cricket, trying to learn, making notes.
Mayank:And he talked about how he had looked at Steve Smith and Marnas Labus Cagney for almost six months to try and figure out what their triggers were, you know, what they would do, what balls they would step out to.
Mayank:I almost feel that that aspect of him, the aspect of him being, you know, constantly evolving, was one of the reasons that India could never quite give up on him in limited overs because he had obviously established himself as a Test great, but his limited overs was probably on and off.
Mayank:So Shayan's thoughts there, I guess, in spite of having somebody like Yuzundar Chahal, Kuldeep Yadav, maybe even Ravi Bishnoi at a later stage, what do you think kept Ashwin in the hunt for that one day spot or T20 spot?
Shayan:Yeah, him being a thinking cricketer and all.
Shayan:And the most striking thing about Ashwin and white ball cricket for me will be that interview where he said that six bad balls are the way to go to constructor over in T20 cricket, right?
Shayan:So he.
Shayan:And even in the last IPL, he was talking about how it's about saving runs, it's about keeping the flow of runs in check and not necessarily picking up wickets.
Shayan:Defensive bowling being a very important, important part of this.
Shayan:So, yeah, I feel like his constant involvement in the ipl, in Test cricket, just him always planning and everything, that kept him in the mix for white ball cricket as well.
Shayan:Though, of course, India got Kulip and Chel at the same time.
Shayan:And that meant in ODI cricket, he wouldn't have the same impact anymore.
Shayan: see, Ashwin was picked in the: Shayan:And he had a decent, he had a decent tournament.
Shayan:I'd say probably not so much in the semi final, but to be fair, everybody was hit for runs in the semi final by England.
Shayan:And you could, you could probably say that that was more of a batting failure in the sense that the batting didn't go hard enough and those sorts of things.
Shayan: eah, I, I believe Even in the: Shayan:That was the one game he played in the World cup.
Shayan:But they kept him around.
Shayan:Of course.
Shayan:I feel like Akar not being available for the World cup would have played a part in that.
Shayan:But if, yeah, I feel you, you can, you can listen to the senior players, how they talk about Ashwin, how Rohit Sharma and Virat Kohi, how they, how they value his words, how they value him being even Jadeja.
Shayan:I believe he said something along the lines of he was his mentor, right?
Shayan:So just having a player like him around, I think it's a great deal for them.
Shayan:So that it's why he probably made a comeback in both of those T20 World Cups.
Benny:It's also a safe bet and in the sense that, you know, like India would try all these different flashy, exciting spinners like you mentioned, Kuldeep and Chahal, like, they are arguably better.
Benny:I, I think they're arguably better than Ashwin and limited overs, but they don't necessarily bring the batting.
Benny:Well, not necessarily.
Benny:They don't bring the batting skills that Ashwin brings.
Benny:And I feel like whenever the big tournament comes along, India looks around, sees who can, who can do it.
Benny:Sure, there's Akshay Patel, there's Jadeja, but then they look at Ashram and they think, well, if needed, he can, you know, contribute a few runs, you know, with the bat.
Shayan:Right.
Shayan:He can contribute a few leaves in a critical situation.
Benny:Yeah.
Benny:Trust me.
Benny:Probably one of my all time favorite Ashran moments in international cricket.
Benny:Yeah, so, so yeah, he, he, you look at him and there's a sense of familiarity, there's a sense of reliability in him.
Benny:That, that itself is a testament.
Benny:You know, again, like I mentioned earlier, he's not like very flashy.
Benny:He's not going to get those magic wickets all the time.
Benny:But with him you are guaranteed at least he's going to be economical.
Benny:He's going to get like chip in with one or two wickets here and there and sometimes that's all you need in T20 games.
Benny:So that's really a testament to not just the way he thinks about the game but just the way he contributes.
Benny:Even given any kind of limitations with, you know, his fielding or batting, he still brings enough to the table that India just could not look away from him until the last one.
Shayan:Even with the bat you can really say that they could have used him as a pinch blocker hypothetically or anything.
Shayan:Like he just brings a lot of things to the table.
Shayan:Right.
Shayan:You could probably just say his fielding was not at that level but that the same thing could be said about Yuzender Chal who I feel like again I agree with you that him and Kip were both better limited over spinners than Ashwin.
Shayan:No doubts about it.
Shayan:In and particularly in ODI cricket, I feel like India really moved on from Ashwin and JA in that period at the right time where they even had Kedar Jadav.
Shayan:Right.
Shayan:So their all round balance was pretty much sorted with Kedar Jadav and Hardik Pandya and then they had these two white wrist spinners in Kip and use Vendra.
Shayan:So yeah, and of course J did manage to come back because his batting really improved and then later on he would provide a lot of balance to the team.
Shayan: bowler anymore after I'd say: Shayan:He didn't have that level of impact.
Shayan:But as you said, economy was always a guarantee with him.
Shayan:He would not go for a lot of runs and I feel like that's what always kept him in the mix.
Shayan: consider the conditions then: Shayan:Probably because of that they ended up selecting a more defensive bowling lineup and combined with A defensive sort of like in terms of intent with the bat, maybe that wasn't ideal.
Shayan:So either you go for a more attacking batting lineup and pair that up with defensive bowlers or vice versa.
Shayan:Right.
Shayan:And India sort of had a bit of both when they won it this time and a bit of luck, of course, with India defending 30 of 30 and everything.
Shayan:But yeah, I definitely agree.
Mayank:One of the other aspects of it is obviously we talk about, you know, him being restless and trying to read things and all of that, but an underrated aspect is the ability to speak about these things.
Mayank:Because let's be honest, I don't know too many Indian cricketers who will talk about all these technicalities.
Mayank:And a great example is actually his partner in crime, Ravinder Jadeja, who's probably the simplest guy in terms of processes.
Mayank:You know, he keeps things extremely simple.
Mayank:He obviously understands the subtleties of the game.
Mayank:There's, you know, he wouldn't be where he is if he didn't.
Mayank:He understands angles, speeds, variations and playing with all these things and, you know, playing with pitches and batters.
Mayank:He wouldn't have 300 plus Test wickets if he didn't.
Mayank:But he's not somebody who can really express himself, not even in Hindi, for that matter.
Mayank: a press conference during the: Mayank:Right, right.
Shayan:Was it Dinesh Karthik who was interviewing him or was it in the press conference?
Mayank:I think it was in the press conference.
Mayank:But, but yeah, it was after the first game of the World cup where he laughed and he said, I won't, you know, talk about my, my tricks because you will publish it in the newspaper.
Mayank:And on the other hand, Ashwin was somebody who could talk about wrist positions and, you know, trying various grips and trying, you know, the, the what he called a Sudoku ball or Sudoku ball, something like that in his autobiography, which was essentially.
Mayank:And so all these variations, you know, that is something that made him probably the only ending tricketer to talk about it in that level of detail.
Mayank:And I think that is pretty exciting for us now because we might get access to his commentary, his insights, maybe even, you know, a coach down the line.
Mayank:So thoughts on that, Shayan and Benny?
Benny:I, I will say that Ashwin can be the next coach for the Chennai Super Kings.
Benny:I will sub him as the next.
Shayan:Potential and then he comes back as the coach.
Shayan:That's a pretty good deal, right?
Benny:He'll probably become like, captain, come, coach.
Benny:Like, I can do all things given.
Benny:I'm sure.
Benny:I feel like that's a real possibility, but I think he's going to be a great commentator.
Benny:You know, we have seen on his YouTube channel, even when he talks with, like, other cricketers, you can see the other cricketers, like, thinking, oh, yeah, that's very true, because they never thought about it themselves.
Benny:So the level of insight that Ashwin has about other cricketers, not so not just works in coaching, but it could really help in commentary, because sometimes you look at the state of commentary these days and you're like, where is the insight?
Benny:You know?
Benny:So I think he could bring some valuable.
Benny:Honestly, he's one of the few cricketers who could do well in any discipline that he chooses, even if he wants to go into administration.
Benny:I know that the track record of cricketers turned administrators hasn't always been great, but with Ashwin, I.
Benny:I feel like he could actually make a difference.
Benny:So honestly, he.
Benny:He's got, like, a great road ahead of him, whichever path he takes.
Shayan:Yeah, there's no doubt about that.
Shayan:And I, as he said, he still has some more cricket to offer, so I'm.
Shayan:I'm really willing to see how he does in the IPL and then in domestic cricket.
Shayan:Does he go for a county stint?
Shayan:Maybe.
Shayan:Maybe he has a stint with sky, maybe with Fox, who knows?
Shayan:So in terms of commentary, in terms of more T20 cricket, in terms of domestic cricket, scouting, his tweets, everything.
Shayan:It'll be a fun time.
Shayan:There's no doubt about that.
Benny:And honestly, I mean, I wanted to bring this up earlier, but I really feel like we missed out on Ashwin, the captain in international cricket.
Benny:Obviously he's captain Tamil Nadu, and I think he's captain in the dnpl, if I'm not mistaken.
Benny:And I really feel like.
Benny:I know we had Kohli.
Benny:I mean, after Dhoni, we had Kohli and then Rohit.
Benny:But somewhere in there, I wonder if India should have gambled on Ashwin just because it does suit his cerebral style.
Benny:The only downside I can see is, like, Mayank, you mentioned that he speaks his mind, which probably doesn't help for diplomatic purposes.
Benny:You know, he probably doesn't really endear himself to people around him.
Mayank:I think there's a couple of aspects with that, you know, him being captain.
Mayank: I think by the: Mayank:You Know he had already had good five, six years of test cricket, picked wickets in, you know, different conditions and India obviously was playing non stop but his spot abroad was not guaranteed.
Mayank:And then his batting tanked which meant, and Jadeja has improved which meant Jadeja was always a definite number seven and he wasn't.
Mayank:So that obviously played a big part of it.
Mayank: cricket, especially after: Mayank:That's why like at that point India had like one captain across three.
Mayank:I mean of course Dhoni was an exceptional, retired only from test cricket for a little bit.
Mayank:But apart from that, generally they had one captain across formats.
Mayank:And that probably also added to the fact.
Mayank:So I think practically speaking that probably played a bigger role than anything else in him not being captain.
Mayank:But I do want to explore like him as a person so we'll definitely get to that.
Mayank:Shan, what are your thoughts on this?
Shayan:That Mayank had to say?
Shayan:And definitely as far as him being the captain, at some point, maybe after Kohli resigned, that could have been an interesting time.
Shayan:Right.
Shayan:Like I was thinking about this and what if he took over for a couple of years but again, as you said, his spot was not always guaranteed when he played overseas that would have played a part.
Shayan:And then India always had that thing of same captain across formats ideally if possible.
Shayan:So, and I, I get why, I get why, because when you have the same coach and same captain across the three dressing rooms, you, you share that sort of continuity across the, across all the formats.
Shayan:There's that clarity and everything.
Shayan:So yeah, it would have been an interesting thing to see Ashwin as the captain of the Indian cricket team.
Shayan:But I don't feel like India missed out on a whole lot as far as I'm concerned.
Shayan:It would have been fun.
Mayank:But yeah, and, and one of the things that always I, I remember one of the Ashwin interviews with Harsha Bogle with Crick Buzz back in the day.
Mayank: This is like maybe: Mayank: Ashwin said, you know on that: Mayank:And you know, it, I mean it felt like obviously I'm sure at that point there was not as much camaraderie or belief in Kohli, the captain but over the years, the way we've seen them develop, I'm sure he had like a lot of inputs.
Mayank:Even if, you know, Ki was the final decision maker, he had a lot of inputs in, in what the team did.
Shayan:Definitely they would have had a lot of agreements and disagreements.
Shayan:But then you're talking about two great players, right.
Shayan:And having the inputs of all of them combined.
Shayan:I feel like definitely they all would have had, had had their say.
Shayan:And Ki, of course, I feel like after Dhoni, it was sort of obvious that Ki is the next in line across formats.
Shayan:He was the best player in the world across formats and everything.
Shayan:So it was kind of obvious at that time.
Shayan:And Ashwin, Ashwin has a captaincy option.
Shayan:I feel like he was discussed right after Kohli resigned.
Shayan:There were talks that maybe Ashwin could also take over.
Shayan:But then Rohit Sharma was doing really well in test cricket.
Shayan:Rohit Sharma was the wide ball captain at that point.
Shayan:So kind of made sense to go ahead with Rohit.
Shayan:Right.
Mayank:And let's talk about Ashwin the person, because obviously fabulous cricketer, but I don't think it's a secret to say that he didn't always rub people the right way.
Mayank:There's a video that, you know, was shared not too long ago, not probably not around his retirement, but maybe a few months back, which I saw on Twitter where they talked about, you know, there was a press conference when he was leading, I think Kings 11 Punjab and he was asked about Yuvraj's injury.
Mayank: bviously this is probably the: Mayank:He's a legend even though his IPL stats are, aren't the best.
Mayank:And Ashwin being Ashwin, he just bluntly responded and said there's no injury.
Mayank:We've picked Manush Tiwari over him.
Mayank:And from an outsider perspective, from somebody who's lived outside of India for more than a decade, I get it.
Mayank:I think it's like completely professional to say what he did.
Mayank:But there was just a thing about tonality and body language which stood out to me in that video.
Mayank:And I think that is where I feel like probably didn't help him either.
Mayank:Like, you know, just the way the culture is in the subcontinent in India in particular, where there's a certain level of, you know, respect, a certain level of awareness you have to have when speaking of somebody who's won matches for India or somebody who's a senior, you know, as they, as they say.
Mayank:So Benny, thoughts on that and do you Think that was probably an aspect.
Benny:I mean, definitely.
Benny:I mean, I see it in my own personal circles, you know, when I, how I, how I interact versus with Americans versus how I interact with Indians, it's so different.
Benny:And it's not because of choice.
Benny:It's not because I want to.
Benny:It's just because that's how they expect me to.
Benny:Right.
Benny:Like I'm talking about from the Indian side.
Benny:And it's a big, big cultural thing where it's not just about the age difference.
Benny:Like when you talk about elders, not just an age, but in terms of experience.
Benny:Right.
Benny:And you see that in corporate India as well.
Benny:People don't.
Benny:If they have like even one year more experience than you, they should be called sir.
Benny:They need to be treated differently and differentially.
Benny:And that's why I always felt that Ashran was refreshing in that aspect where he was respectful.
Benny:But that doesn't mean he wouldn't ask you questions or you wouldn't ask why.
Benny:Which I can see in Indian culture is not always like encouraged because it's like, just do as you're told or just don't like talk back or ask questions.
Benny:And I can see how many people would have struggled with that.
Benny:And if you have read Ashwin's book, you know that he's always been this way, right from when he was a boy.
Benny:And I think it's really nice that you never changed that aspect because I think that's arguably made him the cricketer that he was because he wasn't afraid to push back against conventional wisdom and actually try new things or understand why something needs to be changed or worked on.
Benny:And I think we've even discussed that in Was it R.
Benny:Sridhar's book where he mentions that if coaches suggested something or was it Vikram rather?
Benny:I don't remember who it was now.
Mayank:But yeah, actually there.
Benny:Okay, so if they suggested to Ashwin something and he didn't agree, he wouldn't necessarily dismiss it completely.
Benny:He would actually go and work on it and see for himself if that's going to work for him.
Benny:So something like that.
Benny:And so that's just who he is.
Benny:He's never been one to back down.
Benny:And I think that's helped.
Benny:You know, if you see Kohli, for instance, slightly different because his was more.
Benny:He needed passion, he needed some sort of motivation to drive him to do great things.
Benny:Whereas Ashwin is more on the analytical side now.
Benny:Kohli has evolved more and become more calmer Now, I don't know if that correlates with his run scoring now, if he's not able to match the heights that he did.
Benny:But at least with Ashwin, you see that he has maintained the person that he always has been.
Benny:And I would like to believe that correlates with his performances on the field where he's constantly thinking and he's constantly willing to question the conventional wisdom.
Benny:Now, could he have been better with interpersonal relationships?
Benny:I mean, we saw, you know, the last Borg of Oscar trophy when Tim Payne sledged Ashwin from behind stump, saying something like, not even your own teammates like you.
Benny:There's probably an element of truth to it.
Benny:Right.
Benny:Because there's no reason for pain to just bring that up randomly.
Benny:It's probably an open secret that Ashwin is not everyone's cup of tea.
Benny:They.
Benny:They acknowledge him as a great player and great competitor, but they probably can't always, like, stand him.
Benny:And it's just a sad thing.
Benny:But for I, for one, I'm just glad that Ashwin didn't like, change himself, especially even after the quote unquote Monka controversy in the IPL when people were saying that he should be ashamed of himself or he'll regret it when he's done.
Benny:And Ashra was like, I honestly don't care.
Benny:I completely believe in what I did.
Benny:So overall, I'm just glad that despite all of that, he never changed.
Benny:And sure, there's, you can argue, like, he could have been better in terms of interacting with people, but that's, that's what makes Ashwin.
Benny:And I don't think you can't change that about it.
Shayan:Yeah.
Shayan:So I, I just really think that as far as him being a captain and maybe him speaking his mind and everything, maybe that wouldn't have rubbed off the right way in, in terms of media interactions as well.
Shayan:Right.
Shayan:What do you guys think about that?
Mayank:I, I definitely think so.
Mayank:I mean, I feel like it's very interesting because the.
Mayank:Rohit is obviously a slightly different person when it comes to media.
Mayank:He's extremely relaxed and, you know, he has a different style.
Mayank:Yeah, he's just a different personality.
Mayank:But if you look at captains before Rohit, like, whether it was Virat Kohli, whether it was Ms.
Mayank:Dhoni, when they would be questioned in press conferences, for the most part, you would get very standard, polished, you know, boring answers.
Mayank:And I honestly think, you know, that sometimes is needed to keep whatever's brewing inside the dressing room in there.
Mayank:And maybe that's where, you know, he may not have been the best option as captain or as spokesperson of the team, something like that.
Mayank:But, but Yeah, I do think that the fact that he had it in him to, you know, that he was okay rubbing people the wrong way is one of the key reasons he was always challenging the convention.
Mayank:Like I remember, I think it was a tnpl where I read he tried to do a review after a DRS review.
Mayank:And I was like, this makes no.
Benny:Sense what he was trying to do.
Mayank:And in my head I was thinking this makes no sense.
Mayank:Like what new information are they going to have?
Mayank:But you know that that's the guy he was, he was not afraid to look straight stupid in an attempt to try something new.
Mayank:And, and maybe he retired out, right?
Shayan:He retired out from a team because he felt that could come in and maximize the remaining balls more than he was at that point.
Shayan:And I feel like that he would have been one of the first, one of the early few cricketers in the ipl, right?
Shayan:I, I don't remember the exact if he was the first player, but he would have been one of the first and retiring out.
Shayan:I mean now people are starting to see it this way, right?
Shayan:That in T20 cricket you have to score quickly, not taking a lot of balls and everything.
Shayan:So with Ashwin, he, he always, he was always ahead of the game.
Shayan:He would bat at number three at times for Rajasthan Royals and like you could expect a lot of things from him, right.
Shayan:And as far as the non strikers run out is concerned, I feel like he has done a great job in creating awareness again, like awareness for that.
Shayan: did it in England, right, in: Shayan:So maybe that is Ashwin's legacy.
Shayan:Can we call it that?
Mayank:Absolutely.
Mayank:As we, as we walk away, we've obviously talked about all the various interesting aspects about Ashwin and I'm sure if we had more time we could talk for another hour.
Mayank:But one thing I want to ask both of you, and obviously I'll share mine is your favorite moment from his India career or his career so far, either way.
Mayank:Cheyenne, I'll go to you first.
Shayan:Yeah.
Shayan:So if you ask me, I think my favorite moment of Ashwin has to be when he dismissed Steve Smith in the Border Gasket Trophy in Adelaide and then in Melbourne.
Shayan:I feel like that is the hardest I've ever celebrated an Ashwin wicket or a seam dismissal as an Indian fan.
Shayan:And definitely those, those moments were really special for me.
Shayan: rophy final and of course the: Shayan: t wins at home away Bengaluru: Shayan:They were defending 189.
Shayan:In fact, I was watching a replay of that.
Shayan:I have the replay of that match of that innings.
Shayan:Oh, sorry.
Shayan:Of that bowling spell.
Shayan:And he was actually going for a few runs at the start.
Shayan:But that is where Ashwin comes in, right?
Shayan:He always comes back.
Shayan:He never goes down without a fight.
Shayan:He took, he took seven wickets in that match.
Shayan:We were defending 189.
Shayan:So I believe he was really good.
Shayan: tair Cook, right in Edgbaston: Shayan:So I sort of disagree with Benny on this that he hasn't produced enough magic balls because he did if you ask me.
Shayan:And even the Glenn Phillips dismissal very recently, right.
Shayan:You never know, Ashwin can do that.
Shayan:So yeah, I think if you ask me, like a one proper standout memory.
Shayan:My favorite memory of Ashwin has to be those two test matches of the Border Gavaskar Trophy where he got Steve Smith out.
Mayank:Benny, what about you?
Benny:I mean Ashwin the bowler obviously has so many great moments in his career and Shine has already mentioned quite a few of them for me in test cricket.
Benny:I forget the year but when South Africa toured India and he was just bamboozling FAF and de Villiers, they were getting like them bold and they had like no clue how to counter them.
Benny:For me that just sticks out as a great example of his mastery where he was just at peak form and players just had no clue.
Benny:But overall my best, my favorite moments of Ashwin are again just like the cricketer that he is or the fighter that he is.
Benny:So the two moments that I would pick, well, one was actually from T20 International and we kind of mentioned it briefly earlier is the last, his last ever T20 World cup appearance where he comes into bat against Pakistan, you know, in that last ball and everyone is on edge.
Benny:You know, Kohli's playing this magical innings and then he just leaves his delivery which you know was bold, white.
Benny:And for a second it's like nobody could grasp like what just happened because you would just think like how Denish Karthik did in the previous ball where you would just like just needs to score runs.
Benny:But Ashwin still had the presence of mind In a India vs Pakistan World cup match where it's down to the wire to leave that ball knowing that it was wide, that just shows like that not just the thinker in him but just like that ice, cool, calm under pressure cricketer that he is.
Shayan:Think about it.
Shayan:Yeah.
Benny:Yeah.
Benny:In the context of the game, can you imagine if that was not movement.
Shayan:In a T20 World cup match, India, Pakistan at the MCG.
Shayan:It doesn't get bigger than that.
Benny:Especially if.
Benny:If it was not wide, if it had hit his, like, pads or like, can you imagine the criticism that would have been against him?
Benny:So for me, that's always just one of the peak.
Benny:I know he's achieved and accomplished so many things in his career, but for me, that's just a great example of the cricketer that he is, a person that he is, where he could just be like.
Benny:I know it's chaotic and like crazy intense right now, but at the end of the day, this is still cricket.
Benny:This is still bat versus ball.
Benny:Let me just treat the ball on its merit.
Benny:Even if it's like the last ball of the game.
Benny:And.
Benny:And then of course, the rear guard with Vihari in.
Benny:In the last.
Shayan:Yeah.
Benny:Where he battled that also taking blows after blows after blows like that.
Benny:Again, the fighter that he is, the character that he is.
Benny:Where.
Benny:Which we could have used a little bit of that in the last game.
Benny:I think so.
Shayan:Yeah.
Benny:To me, that, that in Ashwin is more than just the bowler.
Benny:Ashwin is more than just, you know, a great Indian creator who took a lot of wickets.
Benny:I think it's the whole package with him.
Benny:You know, these instances where he just.
Benny:It was like, if I'm on the field, bad, bad ball, field, I'm just going to give it my all and I'm going to do it the same way that I've been doing since my childhood days to the end.
Benny:He was always the same.
Benny:And to me that's like just great.
Shayan:And since we were talking about Ashwin's batting another innings that I would like to mention is the century he made against England.
Shayan:Like a few matches after that.
Shayan:Right.
Shayan:Everybody was criticizing the pitch and like, okay, this is not how a Test pitch should be.
Benny:How.
Shayan:How can score runs on such a wicket?
Shayan:And he just comes in and scores 100 in the third innings.
Mayank:That is Ravi Chandra Motion for you to wrap up.
Mayank:I think I'll add my favorite moment actually from that very series last year where India played at Ranchi and This was the fourth test.
Mayank:We had gone down 10 after the first one.
Mayank:And although England were challenging India in the first couple of days, India came back strongly.
Mayank:And after the win, Ashwin was asked about it and his reply was, ranchi is a black soil pitch and the pitch just works a little bit differently.
Mayank:And that's, you know, India is not a country like Australia where we have five test centers and we know exactly what to do at each place.
Mayank:So we had to sort of rewire and rethink what lengths to bowl, what how, what speeds to bowl.
Mayank:And to me, that is like Arashwan, he's always like constantly evolving and thinking about the game.
Mayank:And so that probably the very recent one, but probably one of my favorites as well.
Benny:Well, on that note, I think we're going to wrap it up.
Benny:I know we had promised earlier that we'll talk a little bit about, you know, India's current tour of Australia.
Benny:We're out of time, but, you know, there.
Benny:I'm sure we'll have more to talk about after this next Test because if news reports are to be believed.
Benny:And again, we're recording this prior to the start of the fifth Test.
Benny:It sounds like Rohit Sharma might not be playing the last game and Bumra will come back as captain for this.
Benny:So there'll be lots to talk about.
Benny:And Shayan, maybe we.
Benny:Hopefully we can get you back on to talk about all of that and more.
Benny:But thank you so much for making time.
Benny:Thank you so much for making time today to talk to us about Ashwin.
Shayan:Thank you so much, Benny and Mayank, that was a really good chat talking about a great Indian cricketer.
Benny:Yeah, absolutely.
Benny:Well, we hope you do come back.
Benny:And I want to thank Mayank for his time as well.
Benny:And to our listeners, thank you for listening.
Benny:Do stay tuned.
Benny:We have big plans for 2,025 and hopefully you come along with us for this journey.
Benny:Thank you so much.
